St. Patrick’s Day is when we remember some guy that kicked all the snakes out of Ireland. We could sure use a fellow like that in Washington DC. But until that guy shows up we’ll just have to be satisfied with a Guinness and this video of the Duke kicking ass while wearing one of those cool Irish caps.
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The Irish part of my backround says Happy St.Patrick's Day to all here at IHTM.
He kicked out the snakes and left the English, some would have preferred the snakes.
Saint Patrick wasn't "some guy" please have some respect. He was a Bishop and Missionary of Ireland. He was kidnapped and enslaved for many years by Irish pirates from the time he was a teen. He managed to escape and he was called by G-d to go back to the place of his enslavement in order to bring the message of eternal salvation to the Irish people. The "snakes" were the druids and pagans who had tattoed snakes on their bodies as a representation of their allegiance to the devil. He drove them out in order to make way for Christ. It took guts and a lot of faith to do what he did. He also did it excellently well. Like Saint Nicholas and Saint Valentine, Saint Patrick has been sadly co-opted by secular people for their depraved and disgusting behaviors OR (as in the case of Sts Nicholas and Valentine) to commercialize holidays in order to stay in the black.
I am all for having fun, however St. Patrick's Day as is celebrated now is very sad and I am sure St. Patrick would not have approved.
As for desiring to kick the snakes out of DC that is all well and good.
Pagans don't believe in the Devil. That's a purely Christian thing.
SOME pagans NOW can claim NOW not to believe in the devil, however many do, but claim not to worship it. I have known pagans of different denominations so to speak. Even if not all ancient pagans believed in the devil, there were does that did. Even if not all ancient pagans WORSHIPPED the devil, there were does that did as it would have been considered yet another god. With that said, that "Christian thing" of believing in the devil is not purely a "Christian thing". That is a very ignorant statement I am quite surprised at you, there are many groups of people that do believe it exists (you forgot about Muslims, Jews and devil worshippers?). The difference is of course as Christians do not worship it, whereas ancient pagans (if not all) did and that brought its difficulties for people as many (like St. Patrick) were enslaved and worst. Also I was specifically speaking to the people that St. Patrick drove out as they would be considered pagans.
I think it's down to different terminology from different perspectives on the situation. What Christians might call the devil is what another would simply believe is a normal part of their religion. For example, the love of money is a form of mammon worship -- but someone else just might think the person just likes their stuff.
I think that coming from the outside, I am not able to tell the druids exactly what the druids ought to be thinking -- however, I know exactly what I ought to be thinking about it. If I wanted to convince them of anything, I would have needed to rely upon tools that they understand to get my point across. They being all long gone, they're already doing their explaining to a Judge that can't be bought, so the point is rather moot.
I have no doubt that the druids didn't feel that they worshipped the devil -- but I bet at least some of the people up inside their wicker men had a sharply different take on things. Our society tends to romanticize things that are sufficiently separated from us in time, but from what I've read, they could be some pretty nasty pieces of religious fanaticism in their own right.
If a person today considers themselves to be a Pagan, but believes in Satan, he is just like a Muslim that believes in being moderate. Not following the teachings of his religion.
Agreed... Druids had issues, but laying devilry on them is like accusing Mayan priests or Cherokee medicine man of the same
It depends greatly on a lot of issues.The mode of worship when it is violent and a disaster to the liberties and lives of others throughout the ages and regardless of changes of times and modes, is a form of devilry as it were. Even if the person is not aware that the god they are worshipping is essence the devil. I always state around here that Islam is founded (even if it is unaware) on the devil. I haven't seen you complain when I or others state that. Druids had issues indeed and I am sure that they had their respective "denominations" with some being less or non violent and less or not into the occult and just more on nature worship, however those that St. Patrick literally made battle with were heavily on the occult and did practice human sacrifice and were in essence fine with human slavery. That was a real issue and he did what he could against that and that is a good thing.
Then they do not fit the modern day definition of Pagans.
Once again... I was not referring to modern day pagans. Where in my original post did I refer to modern pagans? My post was speaking to St. Patrick and HIS work at the time in Ireland. Your post is in defense of pagans today and now, I was not speaking of pagans today and now.
Agreed, to be logically consistent, I might defend Islam against such charges. But I have no desire to stand with Muhammed on this matter, whom i view as violent, psychopathic and schizophrenic. From a Christian's perspective, i can easily see how one might interpret tales of Gabriel's visitations as nothing more than the machinations of The Deceiver
As for Celtdom, which spread across most of Europe at its height, I have read of considerable variety in Druidism (even a lack of it as you head east). Fables depict both noble and wicked Druids. Obviously we have desperate and evil practices, particularly in times of invasion (Prydain/Britain running thick with sacrificial blood as Romans advanced relentlessly through the mists)
Like Perlcat says, there are matters of terminology here. What some might see as satanic allegiance, i view as ancient cruelty and violent ignorance infused with the darkest aspects of dangerous magickal thinking. Its these kinds of unformed and unenlightened cultures that Islam installed itself into quite easily, as well. A lot of contemporary flaws we see in Muslim backwater cultures are simply those backwards traditions which Islam not only did not contest, but co-opted (brutality towards females being a prime example)
On the other hand, Christianity appears to have sufficient moral grounding to permit a Renaissance, and ages of Reason and Enlightenment, and general secularization of many institutions--all without overly violent repression. I see this as a good thing.
Fair enough.
If anything my post spoke to the druids and pagans of St. Patrick time. I was talking about his work due to the article depiction of him as "some guy". Even if they were a minority they were rather powerful one that had to be driving out. Why are we talking about modern day pagans is my question?
I'm not talking about modern pagans.. RHG is I guess. Today's pagans are nothing like the old school..
I do appreciate that you alluded to St. Patrick actually being a Briton.. This has always been a fun factoid for me. I find the metaphor of pagans as snakes likely valid, in terms of the legend, and it fits nicely into the geographical realities of Serpentdom (who similarly didn't reach Greenland or New Zealand, if I recall). The only thing that hit a nerve was "allegiance with devil", but otherwise i am in agreement with the themes of your post and should've said so explicitly.
Walking back to my problems with Druids: they seem to have hoarded knowledge and suppressed literacy, in order to maintain their authority. They kept the Irish kings from uniting through curse and myth. The light brought to that isle by Christian Monks was entirely a boon--greater still since Ireland largely escaped the ravages of the Dark Ages. Trivializing this accomplishment by reducing St. Patricks day to binge drinking fest does a disservice
Well at the very least from St. Patrick's point of view they were in allegience with the devil and that is a fact that cannot be denied. I think that his point of view rather than mine is, in the end, the most important one to consider. If others do not agree with him, that is all well and good, it just so happens that I do agree with him.
St. Patrick's family were well to do, he did not need to go back to Ireland and have to deal with these people, or he could have been angry and gone back to exact vengeance. Instead he chose to evangelize and liberate people. That is something worthwile to commemorate and as you pointed out: "Trivializing this accomplishment by reducing St. Patrick's day to binge drinking fest does a disservice." Exactly my initial point.