Pope condemns idolatry of cash in capitalism

Pope condemns idolatry of cash in capitalism: For all his good intentions the Pope will never produce the food that is needed to feed the hungry. This is because the Pope is not a good steward of scarce resources, nor could he be. Being a good steward of scarce resources and finding the most efficient way to maximize their potential and get them into the hands of the people at the lowest price possible is the job of the free market he condemns. A market that has been becoming progressively less free for at least the last century.

This post was last modified on November 27, 2013

Kip Hooker:

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    • I still say it was a straw man argument the Pope created because a) he knows little about the free enterprise system and b) like the rest of us, he has never really seen it in action.

      • I agree. He knows what he knows, unfortunately that is not enough. I have read the full statements -and will link them. These are my thoughts on them. They differ with some here. They are the same as others here. I've hesitated to post them because I've not wanted to offend those that feel differently. But that is a real disservice to all the smart people here that can handle a civil discussion.

        1. He is wrong to say the markets are free and without regulation and he is wrong to blame the ills of the world in a system that does not exist.

        2. He is wrong to say this system that would (if it existed) operate by the mutual consent of the participants is tyranny while demanding more power for those controlling a system that is compulsory and removes us the process of decision as well as the ownership of our labor and property.

        3. A Free Market does not promote consumerism. A Free Market punishes irresponsible consumption by setting prices at the proper level and -in times when savings are low and spending is high- promoting thrift and austerity through higher interest rates. The system the Pope is angling for (or more of at any rate) promotes rampant and irresponsible consumerism by throwing cheap money at people with no self control and then giving them bailouts after they've squandered what had to be first taken from another person.

        4. A system can exist only so long as enough of the people are willing to put up with it. The Pope is attempting to convince these people to put up with a system that destroys wealth and brings about suffering, destitution and want. He may not be selling indulgences (and I have no doubt he is acting from the very best of intentions) but he is giving cover to those that would indulge in all their baser instincts to control whatever is not theirs.

        5. I'm sure the Pope is a good man looking to do good things in this world. I do not doubt the quality of his intentions.

        http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html

        Apparently the HTML version is no longer up, but it seems they have a PDF for download.

        • "5. I’m sure the Pope is a good man looking to do good things in this world. I do not doubt the quality of his intentions."

          I'd vociferously disagree, but in so doing I'd probly alienate any number of good people who just happen to be RC.

        • Well said. I would only add that the Church, as a whole, seems to have shifted its ire from communism to capitalism as it improperly frames and defines the word. I heard comments of Cardinal Dolan's made yesterday where he conceded that the Church was all in on nationalized health care until the contraception mandate came down. Another example of why one should be careful of what one wishes for.

          • There is the reason why the church is too damned liberal.
            They think that giving everyone "free" healthcare is a good idea, and in a perfect world, it might be, but there is no perfect world, and giving too much away makes people feel they deserve everything free, and don't need to put forth any effort to earn it

  • If it were not for capitalism the pope and the Catholic Church could not have all of the gold silver and expensive items that the church posses. If the pope wishes to bash capitalism so badly, he can just give away all of the church's holdings to include money, art, literature, properties and all. He should lead by example and give up the fine apartment, the butlers, maids and servants at his beckon call. Many priest I know live a simple life. This pope wishes to present himself as a simple man, yet he lives the life of luxury and tells the rest of us that we are evil and bad for wanting to have the fruits of our labor rewarded. Another hypocrite is all.

  • I'm a former Catholic, and I gotta say, the comments by this Pope ( and I looked at them on multiple sites, they sure seem to be socialism in action to me ) would have been enough to make me reconsider my belonging to the faith.

  • I will admit that the Pope has made a couple of statements in interviews which I thought could have been clearer. The statement he made in the "America" magazine interview which can be made to look like he is backing off abortion, has been demoralizing to some of the faithful who see the liberal media misinterpreting what he actually said and using it as a hammer against religious conservatives.

  • sifi: "The progressives, atheists, and like are fawning over this Pope, because he preaches their message."

    No, the liberal media and the liberal section of the Catholic media, which unfortunately also may be a majority of it, are taking bits and pieces of things Francis says, ignoring all the rest, and twisting what they like to fit their agenda. (I know you are only quoting from a comments section, sifi.) The Pope didn't condemn Capitalism, he condemned making it into an idol. I'm a Capitalist, but I try to help the poor and am myself not fond of cutthroat capitalism, the capitalism that only cares about bottom lines and which can be merciless at times towards human beings. How can one look at the way Jesus spoke of the poor and helped the poor and not also be troubled at times about the excesses of Capitalism? If the Church and really everything needs a little reform at times, why is saying Capitalism could sometimes use a tweek or two from time to time wrong?

    The Church has condemned Socialism and Communism, but only the excesses of Capitalism, not it totally in and of itself. How can it be said that this Pope is wealthy? He didn't have much as a young person. Making his way up through the ranks of the Church, he lived in a one room apartment, cooked his own frugal meals, and used the bus or walked for transportation. His curent vehicle is 20 years old. He has not moved into the admittedly lavish papal apartments, but has stayed in the considerably smaller hotel where the Cardinals stay during Conclaves.

    As for the Church's wealth, much of it isn't liquid. How do you sell the Sistine Chapel? Piece by piece? The Vatican grounds are 33 acres. Much of what the Church takes in, goes right back out to the less fortunate. Should we sell the nice things in the White House and the Capitol to help the poor of the United States?

    I want Obamacare repealed but don't say it is 100% wrong. By not doing a few things to improve our health insurance system did the Republicans set the stage for the Democrats to use fear-mongering to harp on the areas of health care that needed a bit of reform to get in power and wreck the greatest health care system in the world?

    Yesterday, the pope released a document which strongly condemns abortion. It lambastes the "progressive" idea that taking a human life is sometimes permissible to solve problems. The Pope recently thoroughly condemned "liberalism". Did you hear about that from any news sources? Please do not buy into the media manipulation which ignores the MANY things Pope Francis says that are conservative, while blowing up and misinterpreting things that appear to be 100% liberal.

    The death panels Sarah Palin warned about are coming. I welcome the words of the Pope that condemn the excesses of capitalism because I don't want my elderly parents or myself or others to be reduced to objects who have cold, utilitarian decisions made which treat them not as unrepeatable human beings, but as objects, products which are to be discarded because of an excessively materialistic view of the world.

    I want to trade with other countries, but am also not fond of a New World Order Globalism which seems to want to do away with the uniqueness of individual countries while also eliminating the values that come from faith and religion for a cold, humanistic view of the world in which our rights can be taken away by atheistic tyrants who don't believe our rights come from God but from them.

    "Our rights come not from the generosity of the State, but from the Hand of God." - John F. Kennedy

    • "sifi: “The progressives, atheists, and like are fawning over this Pope, because he preaches their message.”

      No, the liberal media and the liberal section of the Catholic media, which unfortunately also may be a majority of it, are taking bits and pieces of things Francis says, ignoring all the rest, and twisting what they like to fit their agenda. (I know you are only quoting from a comments section, sifi.) "

      Okay fair enough.

      "The Pope didn’t condemn Capitalism, he condemned making it into an idol."

      I agree that the idolatry of money (under any economic system and that includes capitalism) is wrong and it should be condemned. I do appreciate his initiative to teach correct use of money and as a guide of the CC that is correct.

      "I’m a Capitalist, but [There should be no "but" here in my opinion, "but" negates or makes it seems that helping the poor is not part of capitalism and that is not correct as I am sure you would agree]... I try to help the poor and am myself not fond of cutthroat capitalism, the capitalism that only cares about bottom lines and which can be merciless at times towards human beings."

      Agreed and I am not sure anyone here would disagree with that. We are just thinking that pinpointing capitalism alone is not intellectually honest as capitalism (well implemented) as helped FAR MORE individuals than socialism or communism.

      "How can one look at the way Jesus spoke of the poor and helped the poor and not also be troubled at times about the excesses of Capitalism? If the Church and really everything needs a little reform at times, why is saying Capitalism could sometimes use a tweek or two from time to time wrong?"

      No one here has said that (so far that I have read) nor in the past (that I remember) that capitalism is good 100% of the time and that it doesn't need to be overseen, or tweaked or that advise on how to make sure that it doesn't eat everyone should't be said. I think we can all agree that when something gets TOO big and too impersonal and too dangerous and too crazy it need to be reformed. No one will argue against that.

      "The Church has condemned Socialism and Communism, but only the excesses of Capitalism, not it totally in and of itself."

      Okay, don't know the general stance on the CC on capitalism so I will take your word for it.

      "How can it be said that this Pope is wealthy?" Very easily because his position has made him a very rich and wealthy man. That is to say that he will not want for anything. He is essentially a king. He inherited this position through an election of elites. The position comes with responsibilities, but also priviledges and means/resources. He is a wealthy man, even if he retires like the previous Pope did, he will retire in luxury and wealth. I don't demean this, I don't think that this is not fair. That's part of his position in life. That is part of who he is now... "He didn’t have much as a young person. ETC." Not who he was then... It doesn' t matter the past, he is a wealthy man now. That is a fact. Very many wealthy people still try to keep it real. Sure if he is keeping it real good for him, but that doesn't change the fact that he is still a wealthy man. A wealthy man with humility and so on...? Absolutely no one is going to take that away from him.

      "As for the Church’s wealth, much of it isn’t liquid. How do you sell the Sistine Chapel? Piece by piece? The Vatican grounds are 33 acres. Much of what the Church takes in, goes right back out to the less fortunate. Should we sell the nice things in the White House and the Capitol to help the poor of the United States?"

      The things in the White House and the Capitol BELONG to the people (all) the people of the United States and that has nothing to do with the Sistine Chapel, etc. CC is and always has been one of the most charitable organizations in the world and no one is denying that. However, we are just stating that perhaps his comment was too into Capitalism, ignoring the fact that it has done much good and that others economic and political entities have done much harm in comparison.

      "I want Obamacare repealed but don’t say it is 100% wrong."

      Most Conservatives including myself would say that, but that is not the point that many here are trying to make about what the Pope said.

      "Yesterday, the pope released a document which strongly condemns abortion. It lambastes the “progressive” idea that taking a human life is sometimes permissible to solve problems. The Pope recently thoroughly condemned “liberalism”. Did you hear about that from any news sources?"

      ACTUALLY I did! And I congratulated him on that. I guess I just want to make sure that he is being real. I respect that you are standing for him on this issue and I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

      "Please do not buy into the media manipulation which ignores the MANY things Pope Francis says that are conservative, while blowing up and misinterpreting things that appear to be 100% liberal."

      Fair enough... fair enough... I shall take things with a grain of salt as it were when it comes to the Pope and the things that he says.

      "The death panels Sarah Palin warned about are coming. I welcome the words of the Pope that condemn the excesses of capitalism because I don’t want my elderly parents or myself or others to be reduced to objects who have cold, utilitarian decisions made which treat them not as unrepeatable human beings, but as objects, products which are to be discarded because of an excessively materialistic view of the world."

      Uhm I think I disagree unless I am misunderstanding you... Death Panels and the Obamacare about what? (90% of it) and everything about it is NOT a Capitalistic move. In fact it is the TOTAL OPPOSITE of capitalism. There is no true competition, no true choices either by the employers, individuals, corporations and businesses. That is not capitalism at all. So your fear about elderly parents and people being reduced to objects etc., will not be because of capitalism! It will be because of a government going forward with a socialist mindset and implementation.

      "I want to trade with other countries, but am also not fond of a New World Order Globalism which seems to want to do away with the uniqueness of individual countries while also eliminating the values that come from faith and religion for a cold, humanistic view of the world in which our rights can be taken away by atheistic tyrants who don’t believe our rights come from God but from them."

      I don't believe that this is capitalism fault per se. Definitely not true and applied capitalism. Now anything about money idolatry and so on of course that is bad and that will have something to do with this. So we go back to thep oint that if he is warning us against idolatry that is fantastic.

      “Our rights come not from the generosity of the State, but from the Hand of God.” – John F. Kennedy

      Amen.

    • MDLION You are right. I should have phrased it more like “The progressives, atheists and like are fawning over this Pope, because they perceive that he preaches their message of Socialism and Communism". I was mainly disputing the “This is the message they killed Jesus for. This is the true Christian message.”
      I still have reservations about the way this Pope appeals to the atheist and progressives by some of the statements he makes along the line of you don’t have to believe in God to get to heaven…
      “First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith. Given that – and this is fundamental – God’s mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil. The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision.” – Pope Francis 2013

      Like JPTravis, I’m suspicious because he appeals to too many not of the faith. You post was a good read and I agree.

    • MDLION: There are a few commenters who can successfully reduce their thoughts to words as you clearly can. If you would be interested in having a larger platform to share your opinions from please contact me at kcoachc@gmail.com.
      Thanks
      Coach

    • Well said but the words of the Pope that break through media clutter tend to be like what we have here. As JP pointed out, he may be unwittingly causing damage.

  • "This is the message they killed Jesus for. This is the true Christian message. I am not a Christian but have great respect for this man." Taken from the comment section of the linked article.

    The progressives, atheists and like are fawning over this Pope, because he preaches their message. The Jewish leaders killed Jesus because He claimed He was the Son of God and they declared it blasphemy. Jesus was drawing the Jewish people away from the Pharisees and Sadducees, the corrupted religious leaders of the day. They saw Jesus more as a threat than anything. The Bible teaches that you should work that you may have enough to help the truly needy among you. Give to Cesar what is Cesar's. Government is not meant to be our brothers keeper.

    • I think a few different levels of interpretation can be read into the whole story. I mean, you state the common idea that the Sanhedrin had Jesus arrested and arranged his execution for claiming to be the Son of God. I think it would be more accurate to say that that was the excuse. He was executed for upsetting the applecart.

      Think of this. Imagine this part time carpenter, part time preacher man comes into Jerusalem, goes to the Temple, and says, "Hey there everyone, High Priests and all, my name is Jesus of Nazareth, in town for a little bit. I'm the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, and to top it off, I'm also the Son of God. And by the way, Dad says you guys are all doing a great job here, keep up the good work."

      Would that have even made the local news (so to speak)?

      • He was executed for upsetting the applecart.

        OR, the moneychangers' tables, thus depriving the temple priests of their skimmings.

  • OK first up, hackles down. Remember this is being spun in The Guardian, one of the most notorious left-wing agitprop outlets. Second, he's not saying anything that most legitimate Christian philosophers and theologians have said. He is NOT condemning capitalism. He is NOT denouncing money. He is condemning those who place money at the center of their lives, rather than God. There is a terrible symbolism in the Chilluns of Israel worshipping the Golden Calf, ya know. Our own Founding Fathers made very similar remarks regarding politics and government, remarks which I have often seen quoted here, and which I sometimes quote myself, those to the effect that the Consitution is fit only for a moral and religious people; why does it offend your sensibiities to suggest that the same is true of an economy as a government?

    Yes, money can be an idol, every bit as much as anything else which we place ahead of the Creator.

    • Agreed about idolatry of money being a real thing. I would then give the Pope the benefit of the doubt that his words were not meant to single out capitalism and just speak of the idolatry of money (which we agree it DOES exist) pretty much everywhere in the world. That would be the appropriate thing to do in that case. To speak of the idolatry of money per se is not bad, but to single out capitalism in my opinion is wrong, but if that is not what he meant, then that's good. However it seems that is NOT what he is saying and that he is singling out capitalism as the sole system filled with greed and idolatry of money and that is not right.

    • He's talking about the economic system around the world. He's talking about "unfettered capitalism" which is not only something that doesn't exist anywhere, but something that is Marxist-speak for the United States and the Western world. I really don't see how you can spin this statement into something innocuous.

      As for people worshipping money, that a load of hooey. He's creating a rhetorical strawman for the singular purpose of attacking free enterprise. It's Marxist rabble rousing worthy of Berkeley, not the sort of discourse we've come to expect from the titular head of Christianity. Nobody is "worshipping" money. Nobody is praying to a Golden Calf. The only place the economic system it being abused and people caused to suffer is where the government is being used to further some businesses at the expense of others, which is the very opposite of free enterprise.

    • "This is not just a problem of Sardinia; it is not just a problem of Italy or of some countries in Europe," he said. "It is the consequence of a global choice, an economic system which leads to this tragedy; an economic system which has at its centre an idol called money."

      The Guardian is left wing but this direct quote is key, IMO. Note he says "economic system" - singular - not systems. There is no mistaking what he is talking about and it is decidedly Marxist. Whether or not he realizes it or not is another question. Personally, I think the Pope is full of it on this topic.

  • To prove his lack of evil idolatry, he should give back every cent people have donated to his church, sell off every property they own, give that money back also. Hypocritical moron.

    • Is not the Catholic Church the wealthiest entity on Earth? I agree. Let's see him set the example. Kissing a disfigured man may get the left all weepy but it is more form over substance.

      • You're right, the harm caused by giving tyrants around the world an excuse to stifle free enterprise far outweighs the good caused by kissing a disfigured man. This Pope is doing a lot of damage even though he may not realize it.

  • Events are coalescing in a frightening way. In 2006 the Democrat Party used trickery and skullduggery to enable a communist take over of Congress, followed two year later by the election of our first communist president. Now we have a communist Pope. Let me ask a simple question: with neither the United States nor the Catholic Church standing up for individual freedom, what's left? Where do we look for hope?

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