Why carrying a gun in bear country doesn’t make you any safer

Why carrying a gun in bear country doesn’t make you any safer. We’d be more than happy to take these guy’s out of their laboratory to the reality of Kodiak Island. They can walk around unarmed, we’ll have a .458 Winchester Magnum, we’ll see who leaves alive. Appears to be more anti-gun liberal claptrap ala global warming.

CO2Insanity: Tired of the CO2 BS and all the other BS in the US and the world.

View Comments (75)

  • With a gun you have to hit the bear in a lethal spot. Pepper spray only needs to be shot between you and the bear to have likely success.

    • I think you kinda missed the point, with a gun I only have to hit you in the foot and my eyes are still clear so I don't run head-long into a tree hauling ass the other way.

  • What's the difference between Black Bear droppings and Grizzly Bear droppings?

    Grizzly Bear droppings have hiker bells in them.

    • Answer to 3c
      You boys go ahead, I will wait right here.

      Might not be the correct answer, but it would be MY answer.

  • There is little evidence in that article that there was a real "study" even done. The only real statistical statement made is the number of attacks and the number that involved guns. Everything else is speculation or generalization.

    "... it's about how you carry yourself. "

    and later, "You don't even need a gun if you behave appropriately."

    The problem is, that Professor Smith tells us that we should not carry a gun, but never really says how we should carry ourselves. What is the appropriate behavior? And how many of the gun carrying people were or were not behaving appropriately? Maybe it wasn't the gun, but the inappropriate behavior? This is Alaska. A lot of people wandering around in bear country have guns. Maybe most of them would have had a bad encounter even if they did not have a gun, because the gun had nothing to do with the results.

    How many of the incidents involved alcohol use? Meaning by the humans. Meaning much more likely to not shoot straight. In a small sample like that, you get a couple of dozen drunks who manage to just piss the bear off even more with a bad shot, and you significantly tilt the statistics.

    What exactly were the behavior patterns of the humans involved? Just off the top of my head, I would imagine that the gun-totin' people had a significant percentage of hunters - read: quietly sneaking around in the woods, probably more likely to startle a bear, and be percieved by the bear as a threat than a hiker merrily and more loudly stolling down the path.

    "Mr Smith added that many people who carry a gun may panic ... and be unable to use their weapon effectively."

    Uhhh ... so if they panic and can't use a gun, how can we be certain that they will use pepper spray effectively? Think about it. If there is a charging bear, most likely that bear did not start charging from 10 feet away. Unlikely that you could get that close to a bear before a. knowing he's there, and b. he decides that he should do something about your presence. So if you are too panicked to use a gun from 20, 30 or 50 yards, how the hell are you going to use pepper spray from 10 feet or less?

    Otherwise, there are two words in that quote that scream "bullshit' loud and clear - "many" and "may"

    You did a godammed study! Don't give me freakin' "many" and "may"! You're telling me what is more likely, you for godamm sure better have the exact percentage of how many people panicked and how many did not use their gun effectively.

    "In a 2008 study, MR Smith found that bear spray effectively halted aggressive bear encounters in 92 percent of the cases.

    In order for that to be meaningful to me, Mr Smith, please provide the number of cases (11/12 = 92%, and 12 does not comprise a meaningful statisical sample), and the numbers in the divisions of all the various groups - hikers, hunters, trappers (as in the state people who trap and relocate aggressive bears out of populated areas*), photographers, homeowners encountering a bear at their house (that would be an overly aggressive bear in almost all cases, as opposed to chance encounters in the woods), as well as the bears - males, males n mating season, females, females with cubs, etc. Otherwise, this percentage means nothing to me.

    So in the 229 incidents that involved guns, and the 40 that did not, there is either missing data, or intentionally omitted data.

    * you really never know what the hell is in some percentage that is thrown at you. E.g., those percentages of dog bites that show pit bulls in the stratosphere, more dangerous than even tea partiers, include dog-catchers bitten while trying to snare a stray dog. Well, any dog is pretty likely to try and bite someone trying to put a noose around his neck. And exactly how many Yorkies, Chihuahuas, or Labs have to be rounded up in the streets of Newark?

    And another thing I just noticed - most likely with the MailOnLine, not Smith. The article is entitled "Why carrying a gun ..." Is it just me, or did anyone else notice that one thing that was missing in the article, was why carrying a gun does not make you safer? The claim was made THAT it does not make you safer, but as to why, it was only rather vague speculation.

    • Excellent post. I've never had a bear encounter in Alaska while living there. I know a Grizzly can travel 25 yds in about 1-1 1/2 seconds, so if you're not ready w/your weapon things can happen in a hurry. Be aware of your surroundings, make noise, and make sure you have your weapon at the ready and don't have to fumble through bulky clothing to get access to it when in bear country.

      • I've never had a real encounter with a bear either. I have had black bears within several dozen yards, just wandering around minding their own business. I had one in front of my house one morning, probably displaced from the woods by last summer's floods, that my neighbor described as the biggest bear he ever saw outside of a zoo.

        I live in northern NJ, 25 miles (as the crow flies) west of NYC.

        Love the avatar. Though I'm partial to revolvers, it's still nice.

        • It's a Kimber Eclipse Target II, 5" .45acp. You just can't go wrong with anything that John Browning designed or built. The man was a genius.

          • I've not heard of Randall yet. I know there are a ton of 1911 builders out there (Wilson, Les Baer, Nighthawk Custom,etc.) but I didn't want to spend $2000-5000 on my first 1911, so I went w/the Kimber. I've only had 1 or 2 hiccups with it, mainly due to a worn recoil spring after approx 3500 rds. New spring-no more problems. I'm going to look up Randall now.
            By the way, for all you gun owners here, try Frog Lube on your weapons. Best cleaner, lube, penetrant I've ever used. Makes weapons easier to clean and can improve muzzle velocity on long guns after treating. It was designed by a Navy Seal, and I've gotta support those fellas.

          • Randall only lasted a short time in the 80's. I tried one at a gun show they had where you could try the guns . I was popping steel chickens at 50 yards with one so I bought one. The one I got jammed every 3 rounds. I sent it back for repairs and then it jammed every 4 rounds. I took it to a local gun guy and had him do the works to it. It's never jammed since. http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/randall_history.htm

          • Thanks CO for this link. Interesting story. I'd have thought that stainless 1911's came out from one of the prominant manufacturers, but we learn new things every day. That's why I like this site--besides the politics, there's a wealth of info on other topics by the folks here. I've learned a lot since coming here.

          • NE corner of Morris Co

            I've done some work in Vernon and a lot more in West Milford in the past. That's where seeing a bear is common. They don't really even care much about humans being 50 yards away when you're in the woods or on the edge.

  • All I know is: if you have to use bear spray, you'd better hope you recover from it before the bear does.

  • It's like that joke about the difference between Black Bears and Brown Bears. I read somewhere that when in bear country, you should wear bells and carry pepper spray. Black Bear scat is usually dark and has berries and nuts in it. Brown Bear scat has bells in it, and smells like pepper spray.

      • That's the one I was talking about, however how much do you want to bet some left wing main stream media clown will try to make a series on "living with Grizzlies". I expect it to be a short lived mini-series.

        • Some clown did that already, didn't one? The footage capturing his death was made with his own video camera which he'd apparently dropped or was not in the frame, so only the audio component exists. They release a freaking movie about this guy.

          • Timothy Treadwell was the clown who made the documentary. He went up to 'save the bears' and got him and his girlfriend killed. There was a good article in Alaska Magazine about his exploits, and Fish and Game, the State Troopers, and probably 90-95% of the residents were pissed at him for what he was doing. Typical Calif. (San Louis Obispo) animal rights weirdo. The pilot that flew him out to this reserve every time found he and his girlfriend dead at their campsite. So in 'saving the bears', he got himself, his girlfriend, and two bears killed. Fish and Game had to put the bears down because they had become acclimated to humans. Why can't these libtards ever see the the big picture before they go out and try to 'save the world'? This is a man who should have never come to our state, IMO. He caused more damage than good, and got very little sympathy from the residents, except back in Calif. where his friends and family had little memorials to him and write-up in his local papers. Alaskan's do a fine job maintaining their resources and fish and game, so note to all you ecomentalists and animal rights weirdos: "STAY THE F#@* HOME!"

          • Well said. I like bears, they taste great cooked properly. And they apparently hate hippies-another plus.
            I think we should encourage the tree-hugging OWS tools to occupy bear country and try to be one with them or teach them the words to kumbaya. Unarmed, of course.
            I always carry out in the woods. Very rarely had to use a weapon against an animal. More often than not, I used it to chase off two-legged varmints and hippies.

          • Damn hippies! Like Idaho said, I think we should send the OWSers to the McNeil River in AK during salmon feeding time. Lots of Grizzlys there and absolutely no firearms are allowed. The bears could fill up on bells and pepper spray if they could stand the smell of the Occupoopers. They would probably just go back to the Salmon--better tasting.

          • Really, I believe it had not much to do with the bears, brother. It had to do with feeling better about himself. And he died trying. And that seems to be the problem with the liberals. It really has nothing to do with anyone else but themselves. That "special" feeling is all that matters.

          • Exactly, I will never understand why libtards can't leave anything alone, they screw with everything.

            When I was a kid about 15 I spent two weeks backpacking in the porcupine mountains of upper Michigan, black bears all over the place.
            9 years ago while deer hunting in central lower Michigan a large sow walked out in front of my blind, scared the crap out of me. Lucky for me she din't care about me.
            Bears are afraid of humans and will go out their way to avoid us, stay out of a bears way, don't screw with it and you'll be fine.
            Of course accidental encounters can't always be helped and those are the situations where people often get hurt.

            Its a easy concept liberistas can't seem to grasp.

          • There always seems to be some libtard that thinks he/she can be Dr Dolittle and talk to wild animals. The animals for some unknown reason, just don't want to be bothered, but you know libtards, they never give up, and it usually doesn't go well for them.

          • Aw, crap. i loved Gilda. Broke me up when she died. Watching this and a bunch of other clips of her really was a treat! All the years on the tubenets and I never looked her up. Great stuff.

          • Whoa, dude, who are you? You aren't talking about Boy Scout Troop 316 are you?

            Wouldn't that be something if we knew each other...

  • A gun. That's it? A gun, any old gun, cuz you know they're all the same!

    Generally, a 12 gauge with, say, a ten round magazine stuffed full of ounce or ounce and a quarter slugs, dumped into a charging grizzle dog will leave it without much energy left to harm you, if it makes it that far. Of course, one must always keep one's S.A. wound up when wandering in a dangerous animal's home. Bear are fast and big bears aren't hindered much by brambles that would stop humans cold. They'll blast right through that stuff. They can be extremely quiet. Avoid hand to claw combat with bears.

    This is a great sign for this thread. - http://www.outdooroddities.com/2008/07/23/grizzly-bear-warning-sign/

    • That's a great sign, FDH! When I go fishing in Alaska w/my friends, we carry a .44 mag (minimum) with the hottest loads we can fire. I tried the 500 S&W mag but it's far to harsh on my wrist. Shotgun w/slugs is good also. These college educated idiots really have no clue about bear country until they've actually spent time out there. They can have their bear spray and I'll take a firearm, thank you. Ask Timothy Treadwell how it works for him and his girlfriend without a firearm for protection--Oh, wait-- They got eaten by a bear.

      • The 44 Mag is a substantial beast and if you're unable to get your 12 gauge slug dispenser then the 44 is better than any other. Probably as effective as the 500 and since they are 5 round capacity, the 6th in the 44 evens it out. When you're shooting a beast like a griz or God forbid a kodiak, shoot it as many times as you can! Don't wait to see if you hit it with the first one. Trouble with hand guns is hitting a moving target is tough, so the longer barrel two hand operation shotgun is definitely preferred.

        I had for many years a 10 gauge automatic Ithaca, which only held 3 rounds. The 2 ounce slug or 18 pellet 00 buck would likely do the job, but finding out it didn't stop the beast quickly could leave the shooter mauled, even if the bear did die eventually.

        I have a friend that moved to Alaska's wilderness many years ago. They encountered a grizzly coming into their camp one day, during one of their first exploratory trips up there. His dad hammered it with 5 12ga slugs. It wasn't running at them but up on its hind legs and roaring at 10 yards and closing. It didn't drop until the 5th hit in its chest, and was only a few feet from where they were when spotting it. The kids had run away and dad was backing up while shooting. Then they got to worry about whether there were others around. Crazy story!

        When Mike told me about that I asked if they were ready to move back yet. They wound up moving to Fairbanks. He became a documentary film maker for the National Park Service, a job which he recently lost due to cut backs, unfortunately.

        • Just a little factoid about the S&W 500:
          S&W 500 muzzle energy= approx. 2500 ft lb.
          S&W 629 .44mag=approx 800 ft lb. One well placed shot with a 500 will bring the largest critter down, but like I said earlier, you need a steel wrist to handle the recoil, so your point about the .44 is well taken. I shot a 10" barrel 500 (3 rounds) once and my wrist was sore for a few days. Too uncomfortable for my liking. They make a 2 1/2 " model, and I couldn't imagine the pain of shooting that weapon.

          • The 500 is a monster. Never discharged one but fondled one at a show. Quite a hefty piece. I don't recall the length but it was around 6 inch or so. I did not like the way it felt at all. I knew the round was significantly more powerful that the venerable 44 magnum but more than three times is more than I expected! Still, as hand poppers go, the 44 is more than I care to shoot much.

            I've had a Redhawk since around 86 or so, and in that time maybe fed 250 rounds through it. They call it a 5.5 inch but it that's generous. I put Pachys on it before ever shooting it because the stock woods were so narrow on the top I knew it would roll in my hand. The action is as smooth as any factory Python I've ever handled, not a single dribble or tick in double action and a very light squeeze in single. Points naturally and balance is quite good. A friend had a long one, like 8 inch or something and it was not as easy to deal from. Only wheel gun I ever bought with intent to keep. The story behind my decision to go Ruger over everyone else is brutal. An incident at a shop in Skokie, Illinois involved a guy stacking 2 44 mag slugs in a 41 mag Redhawk barrel without catastrophic explosion.

            Still, a nice 12 gauge auto of compact stature seems much more sensible. I had a SPAS 12 auto/pump, the Terminator one hander, and it was by far the most unwieldy gun I've ever owned. Sold it 7 years ago, not without hesitation merely for its preposterous nature. But sold it I did. For as long as I've owned 12 gauges I've always said you can't really have too many. And when it comes to beating the adrenaline I think an instinctive two hand long gun posture would improve the odds of surviving a bear attack than with any handgun, unless he's got you in his grasp! If time permits shouldering the weapon then yes, of course.

            My reloader has allowed me to pop probably around a hundred thousand shotshells over the decades. Lots of time chasing bouncing targets offhand around the farm for hours on end. Not much beats point and shoot a lot for fun and practice! And no sore shoulder, maybe a little bruise on the ribs and arm, but nothing that prevents doing it again the next day.

            I love talking about guns. They're so fun!

          • Ruger makes fine guns. They over-engineer (build like brick sh..houses) all their weapons. I built a little tack driver out of a 10/22--bull barrel, Hogue stock, Bushnell 3-9 scope. 1/2" groups at 50 yds. My only shotgun is the famous Remington 870 w/Blackhawk adjustable stock for home defense. my favorite weapon is the Kimber you see in my photo. You're right--guns are great!

          • I love Rugers. Have a Blackhawk .357. Must have 3000 rounds run through it and is still as tight as the day I bought it.
            My personal fave shotgun is my Mossberg 500 with 18" modified choke, no magazine plug, and pistol grip. Think Lorenzo Lamas in the show Renegade.
            My plinker is a Ruger MKII .22 semi-auto. It feels great in my hand and looks alot like a Luger. Another weapon with thousands of rounds run through it without any visible wear.

          • 870s have been my fave sliders for a long time. Two actuator connectors is better than one. Not expensive and hard to complain about. My existence since the economic crash has been subsidized by intermittent selling of a number of them from my collection. I'm down to 1 12 and 1 20 gauge. Used to have several others but every few months I've had to sell one. Got no more of that model on the sell list. Very reliable units. I had a 60s 16 gauge that I practically gave away last year. It was a really sweet little piece. The others were all 12s and nothing special. I used to buy em whenever I saw em for sale cheap.

          • Need the knife to harvest those steak cuts. Never saw one of these shotguns before. Interesting. Looks a little boxy and bulky. Could be a bit unwieldy. Not judging without flipping one around, but it looks large. I have not fondled one of this company's units either, but it sure looks manageable, plus the boxes are easy to change - http://saiga-12.com/

          • I was working on a dam project in Southern California, in the Angeles National Forest. Just little bitty California brown bears here, but still enough to get your attention if you're the guy on the ground out ahead of where the equipment is working.

            The inspector for the Army Corps of Engineers knew I had a Glock 17, so he actually suggested that I carry it with me, for protection from the bears. Yes, a 9mm. I think he spent way too much time in college.

          • I've run into several black bears over the years while hunting or fishing. Never had a problem out in the boonies with one. The reaction always is they will put their nose up and sniff, then take off. I dont think they want to confront people.

            I am more concerned with the campground bears who have little or no fear of people getting pissy over food. They can be very brazen. Rule one is no food, toothpaste, deoderant or anything that might get them interested in making a visit inside the tent. Rule two is the 44 mag is under the pillow.

          • Well, what I didn't know about the area we were working in was that the forest service used the ridge just above the job as a drop off area for bears that had lost their fear of people to the point they they had to be trapped and relocated. I got along with them pretty well, considering.

            I didn't act like they were in my territory, more like respecting theirs. Although we DID end up building a dam in the middle of it. Seven Oaks, on the Santa Ana River. It was a fun job.

  • I've seen several stories where just barking like a dog (ya gotta really sell it) will spook a bear off

    If you are a bear, running into a pack of wolves or wild dogs must truly be an annoyance

  • Personalty i'd rather not see the bear harmed so I'm advocating pepper spray for the first line of defense, a really big gun in case the pepper spray is ineffective.

    I don't like killing anything unless its necessary. Too many hunters go after large predators simply because they think it will make their penises larger.

    I would not sacrifice my dog, ( and best friend) no way would I take advantage of the unconditional love my dog has for me.
    I'd die protecting my dog...

    And before I get called a tree huger, I hunt, I have no problem putting food on the table but I have no respect for "hunters" who kill for the pleasure of killing.

    PS.
    Bear meat tastes like shit.

    • I'm pretty sure my wife's Bichons aren't going to be scaring any bears away.
      I can't imagine that a bear would taste very good.
      I am only aware of one unarmed person who successfully survived a surprise encounter with a bear, he was driving a tractor trailer.

      • No, bear is actually very good. It just has to be cooked correctly. At least the bear that my German friend's mother cooked was really good.

        • Yeah this reminds, i had venison on a couple occasions, back-to-back, when i was like 8-9y. One of the dishes was pretty inedible (to a kid.. stringy bitter and tough), and the other was deliciousness.. I can't speak to the cuts of meat, but the yummy one was prepared by my friend's Polish grandmother (maybe some aunts too)..

          Its all in the family recipe.. I think of those tough people who survived dire winters in Northern and Central Europe, and figure they probably could eat any ole beast

    • You need to get it cooked by an old German lady. They know how to make it taste awesome.

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