NBC edits “under God” from Pledge of Allegiance, apologizes, but doesn’t say what it’s apologizing for

pledge of allegiance

For some inexplicable reason NBC cut the words “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance during it’s coverage of the U.S. Open golf tournament.

It’s inexplicable to us, but perhaps you’re smarter than we are and can explic it.

Strange as this must have seemed to NBC, people noticed. They complained. In droves. And NBC began a tardy attempt at damage control by having Dan Hicks issue this vague apology on the air:

“We began our coverage of this final round just about three hours ago and when we did it was our intent to begin the coverage of this U.S. Open Championship with a feature that captured the patriotism of our national championship being held in our nation’s capital for the third time. Regrettably, a portion of the Pledge of Allegiance that was in that feature was edited out. It was not done to upset anyone and we’d like to apologize to those of you who were offended by it.”

A portion? What portion? The general statement doesn’t actually say.

NBC, which is owned in part by General Electric, a company so far up Obama’s butt that it can’t see daylight, omitted the same words Obama omitted from the Declaration of Independence in an April speech and from his Thanksgiving proclamation in November.

But please don’t read anything into this remarkable coincidence.

This post was last modified on June 20, 2011

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View Comments (197)

  • “It just leaves the details of how are things composed for us to have fun and examine and study our surroundings.”

    How does this make it true? There are 1000’s of other religions that say so but in different ways. You are still missing the point. No one can prove who wrote the Bible that is why it is hard for people like me to believe in the Bible. The Bible does have some good moral principles that I actually abide by in my life. I just still have difficulty seeing God in a human form. It just does not make sense being in such a complex world. If there is convincing proof I will believe it.

    “Where does Science comes from? It always existed it didnt just start to exist just because someone called it science one day.”
    Please refer back to my past statement on the definition of science.

    Ok those passages you referred me to are not scientific. A circle does not equal a sphere. God being above Earth is metaphorically saying that he is in the sky looking down at us. Humans usually related power with something higher or greater than them.

    Here are the passages I was talking about:

    Exodus 21:15, 17,18, 20 (this is what some slave owners used to justify slavery) 22:18 (magic?) 20, 24

    Fact remains there has been many religions before Christianity that discussed a Hell or a God. It is uncertain to absolutely claim that Jesus Christ is the correct path to take.

    If you are interested here are some of the thoughts of our founding fathers on religion:
    “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
    [James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785.]
    I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!
    [John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.]
    History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.
    [Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813.]
    I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it.
    [Benjamin Franklin, from Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion, Nov. 20, 1728.]”
    Last let me just finish by saying that nothing is wrong when one reads the Bible and does good for human beings. Now the problem with this mindset is that it seems some are doing good just to make God happy rather than to do good just because we are all humans trying to help each other out in this chaotic world.

    • You can make anybody to have said anything when taken out of context.
      These are parts of discussions against creating a theocracy, which our founding fathers were careful not to create, and what they, theocracies, have done to religion in the past. All these men believed in and respected God. I can post hundreds of quotes proving so.
      Read them in context for the true meanings.

    • Thank you for citing the passages you referred to earlier, here are the passages:
      Exodus 21:15,17,18,20
      15And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
      17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
      18And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:
      20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
      Here are the verses I believe you may have meant:
      Exodus 21:1Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
      2If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

      These verses go on in detail to explain every way in which the Hebrew people were to deal with their slaves. God never encourages slavery, rather acknowlegdes its existence and instructs his people on how they are to deal with servants/slaves. They are instructed to treat slaves as Humans, not property and to free them after they serve their time. In the time in which these laws were given people could be slaves if they were criminals, indebted or impovershed.

      "Fact remains there has been many religions before Christianity that discussed a Hell or a God. It is uncertain to absolutely claim that Jesus Christ is the correct path to take. "

      Actually many ancient religions have had many gods and different versions of the afterlife, but the Hebrew people who kept the Word of their God were monotheistic. When influenced by other culteres around them and turning polytheistic they were always judged harshly, God allowing their kingdom to splinter, then to fall to others. Yet God also promised to keep them as a people and continued to bless them even in trials. The Hebrew Scribes continues recording the Word of God, or rather preserving it for future generations. If you would read through the Bible today, the Old Testament is the recording of the prophets who wrote these book and are considered God-Breathed, which means God spoke through the prophets to record his Word. The New Testament is the recordings of Jesus, and his Apostles. It is the belief of Christains today and those 2,000 years ago that Jesus fullfilled every prophecy about the Messiah, the odds of that are like 1 million to 1. I give you this basic lesson because, if the Bible was written by the Hebrew/Jewish people alone, it would paint them in a much better light, as any people would do when recording their history. (History is written by the conquerors) However it shows a faithful God to his people who turned from him time and again. Now onto the Apostles, the Bible clearly states after the death of Jesus-
      John 20:19Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
      They Apostles who had traveled with Jesus were hiding after he was crucified becasue they were frightened, when Jesus died they feared they would be next. After they see him, they still have some trouble believing their eyes:
      27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
      28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
      29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
      After this the Apostles stay with Jesus until he ascends to Heaven, they are given this instruction; Matthew28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [2] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
      All of these men then contiued to preach the Words of Jesus, that he was the Son of God, the Messiah, and they all DIED for it. Nothing would make men who were once fearful for their lives to be associates of Jesus suddenly turn completely in a 180 degrees direction and be suddenly willing to DIE for their belief in him if they were lying about what they witnessed. No body dies for a lie, especially if they were once afriad. Except that they spoke by their actions after seeing Jesus alive, looking death squarely on and still to say "Jesus is the Son Of God" and be killed for it.

      If you were to have a new neighbor move into the house next door to you, would you go around town, asking every one's opinion of them and then making your own opinion about your neighbor without ever speaking to that person? Or would you go directly to your neighbor and talk with them directly before forming your own opinion of them? Which is the more practical, logical and sensible?
      I strongly recomend you do the later if you want to truly understand God, Jesus, and Christians. What do you have to loose by doing alittle research from the source of your questions? At the very least you may find some surprising answers.

  • Such much has happened since I last visited this website. I’m pretty surprised. What am I going to do to you? Whats with the paranoia? Nothing. I am not forcing you to abandon your religion. If it works for you that’s fine. On the other hand I think it is rather rational and humble for you to say to people that “I BELIEVE this is the right way” instead of saying “this IS the right way”. I’m not saying that you do this. I am uncertain but if you do indeed say this now you know what I think.

    What I mean is that roughly 15 percent of the Americans are not religious (which is probably higher in my bias opinion). Therefore including the word “God” in the Pledge of Allegiance does not accurately reflect the midset of all Americans. Rather it forces a type of image on atheists, agnostics, etc. Just because one is allowed to not utter the word “God” it does not necessarily do justice. In fact it can be rather intimidating for children in school who are raised as atheists. Just imagine if an atheist child is surrounded by Christians students in the classroom. How do you think that child would feel? Think about that for a second by putting your religion to the side (if that is possible).

    Atheists don’t want to take control of the government and cause havoc. In fact some of the most atheist nations in Europe have lower crime rates than the United States.

    And I want to clarify that Hitler was not atheist. These are his own words:
    “The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. [original italics]”

    “by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. [original italics]”

    And some more I found from a website:

    “The Führer made it known to those entrusted with the Final Solution that the killings should be done as humanely as possible. This was in line with his conviction that he was observing God's injunction to cleanse the world of vermin. Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" [quoting Hitler]), he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God--so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty.”

    Despite these quotes he was still a terrible human being.

    You seem to have twisted the argument slightly. Withdrawing the word “God” from the Pledge of the Allegiance does not force anyone to change their religious beliefs. Surely if that single word is what makes people religious than that says much about how strongly believers are connected to their religion First of all the word atheist can be kinda confusing. I do not necessarily believe in a human like “God” like Christianity preaches. I believe that something (like some type of unexplainable energy or force) is responsible for the existence for all the objects and materials that we know of.

    Again you are being paranoid and melodramatic. I never said I wanted to take over the world. I personally do not have a problem with religions in general. After all churches do SO much for the community. Religion also brings peace to those who are struggling in life or who need some type of a psychological assistance. Then there are those who want religion to control the mass of the people by pushing their religion into a political agenda. That is when I have a problem with religion.

    I never said the human mind created the force. You should refer back to that statement and re-read it carefully if you wish.

    “Or science created everything because science is an all knowing all powerful and this science cannot be called G-d because… why?”

    Do you know what science is? I don’t think you do so here is a reference of the definition of science: “The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment”.

    Science has discovered more about the world than has the Bible. The Bible is static in the sense that it is not expanding. No one is making additions to the Bible therefore making the lessons of the stories remain the same over many of years. Science on the other hand has proven the Bible wrong on many accounts such as; evolution, homosexuality, the fact that Earth is older than 6000 years, etc. Therefore I do not think science is silent on the human existence. Sure there is a lot to be explain but science has explored the atom, the human body and the universe in ways the Bible did not. Yes I know you will say something along the lines of “well the Bible was written 2000 years ago”. Yes that is true and that is precisely why it is outdated. I believe the Bible is outdated and in fact written by humans who had their own philosophies on life and/or who want to control the masses of people (which is ironic to your statement about atheism).

    I want to be God? Pleaaaaaaase…. That is just bogus. First of all I don’t need anyone to not to believe in God. You are perpetuating me and atheists as these evil demons that want to control the world. That is just ridiculous. Fact is I want people to be aware of reality and that believing in a book of fairy tales is not logical at all. NO ONE can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus walked on water and that the Bible is the word of God. The only “proof” you may claim to have is these words of the Bible which is not strong enough to say with certainty Jesus is indeed the son of God. It is interesting that secular resources 1000’s of years ago did not mention Jesus and that even historians that did mention a Jesus figure neglected mentioning him walking on water and performing miracles. I could be wrong on this one. If you have any resources that prove my claims are incorrect please enlighten me.

    • To whom are you speaking? In any case that is quite long and I have a beach chair to warm up very soon so I won't be able to respond and by the end of my vacation I will not make an effort either especially since I said all that I could say on the issue and YOU should try to find a person in your neighborhood that you can talk to about your issues and questions. If someone else wants to correspond with you (baby?) awesome. I hope everyone enjoys their week I shall.

      • You were the one that said "I hope you read everything but I am not going to do this again UNLESS you answered my number one question". That is the only reason why I responded. Its ok if you want to quit. No hard feelings. It was definitely an interesting conversation to say the least.

  • sa_rose

    This was definetly not pulled from my a**:http://www.missiontoamerica.org/genesis/six-thousand-years.html.

    This is just one of the several christian websites that discuss this. I just asked a question about the Bible so I can learn more and hear what others have to say. I don't know why you are upset.

    KimmyQueen with all due respect carbon dating is just one of the several different radioactive measures used to test different sources on Earth. Most importantly carbon dating is definitely not reliable on relative "young" materials but for materials that are quite old that is a different story. Decay is rather a slow process. There is nothing wrong with the science behind calculating the age of Earth.

    • I think the reason why she seemed upset is because the way it came across was like you were trying to make a case that there is no G-d because of that. Again since we are talking about a powerful G-d that can do whatever He wants it is just not that big of a point.

      With all due respect it was YOU that brought it up, and I just answered accordingly, so don't make it seem like you didn't bring it up, because you did. It could be one of the several measures, but you mentioned that and and that alone. The point is that carbon dating has been done on organic objects (like fruit) and other objects and results have come that the object is much older than it actually is so that is why it is not reliable. It can provide a lot of false positives and false negatives. There is a lot wrong with that scientifical practice and a lot of scientifical practices can be unreliable, so I don't place much stock on them and like I said as it comes to the creation of the world an all powerful Deity can very easily age the planet, so even if the planet is billions of years old or just a few thousand it doesn't matter especially in matters of faith.

    • Some people do take a literal view of the Bible and go with the Jewish calendar as the mark of the beginning of everything. I don't care. The Jewish calendar is much more a reflection of the creation of the Jewish people, if someone wants to add to that the creation of the world, that is fine, and some do not agree and that is fine too.

      The point is though that we really don't know for HOW LONG Adam and Eve lived BEFORE the Fall WHEN the actual geneologies started. It is a mark for great debate. They could have lived for "thousands of years" or even "billions of years" in the Garden of Eden protected from the elements while the rest of the world was doing its thing. Then the Fall came and they had kids and so on and so forth and what's next. The countdown of the 6K begins. Overall it doesn't matter, like I said, G-d is not constricted by time. He could have very easily created the world in "six days" aged it and then we have billion years old Planet. He could have created the world at the equivalent of 6 billion years or whatever and to Him it was a mere "six days".

      The truth is that that is part of the mystery and that is why it is fun, but I don't think it should be a weapon against people of faiths or to intimate that to be a problem as to the existence of G-d. If anything it amplifies the fact that G-d had a lot of choices as to how He created the universe and what He did in wisdom in order for it to be acceptable for life. It also exalts the fact that He is all powerful and all mighty and therefore capable of doing whatever He wants.

      It is awesome and awe inspiring to me, instead of presenting a problem like you are trying to create. The issue here is that you simply do not want to believe in G-d and therefore want to hang on to something that in all reality is not a problem AGAIN when we are speaking of an All Mighty All Wise All Powerful Deity :-/.

  • How can Earth be 6000 years old according to the holy scriptures when in fact carbon dating suggest Earth is roughly 4.6 billion years old (give or take)?

    • Nowhere in the Bible does it give a date of creation that would lead to the assumption that the earth is 6000 years old. The Old Testament is a collection of books that describe the relationship of the Jews with Yahweh. THEY decided on a date at some point, and started counting from there. If you check with any Jewish Rabbi or congregation, they will tell you the year according to THEIR calendar, as opposed to the current calendar which is based on the central point of Jesus birth and life (Before Christian era, CE Christian era.) You are truly grasping at straws at this point. THe arguments you are trying to make have long since been dealt with, even in the non Judeo-Christian world. Do some reading, learn a little history, and study religions of the world, as well as the scriptures you are so ready to deny. If you do all that, and still feel Jesus was not God incarnate, there you are. But you can't just pull stuff from your A$$ and claim that is proof that God doesn't exist!

    • Carbon dating is reliable up to a point. It has been found that items over 4K years old have found itself to have issues... Also there has been several tests done on contemporary objects were carbon dating provides ancient timeframes. With that said though the Earth may very well be billions of years old. Also wanted to add that the 6K + timeframe is more about the history of the Jews from their creation until now than necessarily the creation of the universe. Many people have different things to say on the subject. However regardless like I said it doesn't matter. It is all part of the fun.

      The assumption that you are making is an All Powerful All Knowing Deity is constrained by something as trifle as time. Time in all reality is a human construct in order for us to control our environment. G-d plays with time, because He has real control. As an example: Not sure how Jesus dealt with the issues of fermentation and so on when it came to the wine he made from fresh water, however, the wine was said to be fantastic. Fantastic wine needs time to be fantastic wine. Which means that Jesus not only turned water into wine, but he aged the water/wine as well. He aged it within seconds or minutes. If it is possible for him to age so small amounts of water, I have no problem believing that in order for the world to function as it needed to (in order for us to live appropriately), G-d in His Wisdom created the world, aged it and then let life begin, then created His people which then decided to construct a time frame.

      Part of the fun of living life is asking these questions using all possible knowledge and looking at the big picture. G-d is not constraint by OUR limitations. He can do whatever He likes. If He did make the universe 6K + years ago, but aged the world in order to successfully sustain life so be it. If He made the universe more than 6K years ago, and the world just aged accordingly then so be it. People want to limit G-d's power... it is a mistake.

  • KimmyQueen: One aspect that bothers me about Christianity and the muslim faith is that it states that if you do not accept jesus christ or Allah respectively then you will face eternal damnation. Does that seem fair to you? If someone was born in India they will most likely be a hindui and if someone was born in iraq they would be muslim. Where you come from and who raises you affects what religion you believe in substantially. Also the Bible is not written in every single language as well so how can someone be responsible for understanding what the scripture says? It is completely unfair to say that Jesus Christ is the one true way and if you are not able to accept that or have a hard time believing in a religion then sucks for you. To me being forced to accept the lord seems rather harsh at times since there is so much uncertainty in this world. We never asked to be born and now we must live a life to die. An extraordinary claim such as Jesus christ being real requires extraordinary amount of evidence. Having a Bible that contains very persuading passages does not constitute proof beyond responsible doubt that this one book holds the answer to our existence. I would also like to ask why there is also no historical evidence supporting the bible? Also if it truly is the word of God then why are some holy scriptures not included in the bible such as Tobit, Judith and Esdras?

    • The books you refer to are called the Apochrypha, and are included in many translations. I recently viewed a 1611 King James Bible, and the Apochryphal books were included then, even though they have been excluded in more recent editions. THere are a number fo gosprels (the gospel of Judas {not THAT Judas} the Gosdpel of Mary Magdalen, and others) that have been preserved in the Vatican libraries. THe canon (what would be included) was decided a few hundred years after Jesus' death and Resurrection. THe ENTIRE new Testamnet was written after HIS death. THe church fathers at the time tried to include the books that seemed most accurate. TH eletter of Paul were written within a very few years of theCrucifixion. THe Gospels were dictated/written between 30-70 years after, as the patriarchs aged and tdesired to preserve their experiences. The Revelation to John was written probably around 70 AS when the Romans were sacking Jerusalem. Not a prophecy, a commentary on what he was seeing around him. Each Gospel has a slant. Mark is the earliest and most basic. Matthew is aimed at Jews in particular, and uses Mark as groundwork. Luke writes for the masss, the non Jews. And JOhn, the youngest of the 4, writes in a very spiritual, ethereal way about Jesus and his divinity. If you have not studied the Bible, even from a historical, literary view, then you are too ignorant to be making comments about it.

      • The Book of Isaiah, The Book of Daniel, Zechariah many other minor and major prophets and the Book of Revelations are considered to be historic, prophetic and eschatological in nature. The Apostle was at Patmos when he wrote the Book as per scholars, perhaps within 10-20 years of the destruction of Israel (according to some scholars) so it is possible he wasn't talking about something that had already happened. He may have been speaking of things that were happening at the time, but he was exiled so he could have been talking of things he saw some time before his exile.

        However the entire book has eschatological and prophetic aspects. The churches and the messages for the churches many happened after he died if I am not mistaken, also his description of Heaven and the Kingdom of G-d has not been something that has been seen on Earth at any point in time, and of course there is the destruction of Satan and its forces (as described in the book) which (well for those that believe in Christ) hasn't happen yet as we look around the world and its continued evil.

        Isaiah, Daniel and Zechariah had similar visions/visitations to heaven and prophetic messages from G-d and His hosts and Christ Himself. It is actually very amazing reading Isaiah, Daniel and Revelations. They all have the same themes and they were written in very separate and distinct time frames and they all end with a very future Kingdom of G-d and destruction of evil forces. The descriptions of Christ in each book are impressive and similar which is astonishing. Especially the description of Christ's "skin" in Daniel and Revelations. Zechariah and Revelations have descriptions of technologically advance weaponry that wouldn't exist at the time, impressive enough for me to believe they are speaking of nuclear weaponry. Each books speaks of a Reedemer that is in the future (the Apostle spoke of the Reedemer's return) and each books speaks of a world dictator (antichrist figure) which the Reederm utterly destroys and it hasn't happened yet.

        All in all I think there could be good arguments made that the Book of Revelations is a prophetic/eschatological book even if he was biased/slante/descriptive of persecution that he saw or was familiar with.

    • “Having a Bible that contains very persuading passages does not constitute proof beyond responsible doubt that this one book holds the answer to our existence.” I don’t get it, if it contained persuading messages, but you still doubt then they weren’t very persuasive right? :-/ In any case, it doesn’t work out for YOU, but don’t hate on those that it HAS worked out for. Also how much time and effort have you given in studying, reading and discussing the Bible with knowledgeable people?

      “I would also like to ask why there is also no historical evidence supporting the [B]ible?” WHAT? The Bible IS FULL of historical evidence. The Bible is an historical series of books. I have no idea what in the world you are talking about. You have OBVIOUSLY not read it. You should really start doing that and talk to people that can help you on it in the real world.

      “Also if it truly is the [W]ord of God then why are some [H]oly [S]criptures not included in the [B]ible such as Tobit, Judith and Esdras?” Those are part of many Bibles for many denominations. It is in several Bibles that I have owned/I own and I have read those since I was 12 years old. There are some denominations that do not include them in the Bibles they use in their churches. It is their choice. It doesn’t mean anything, it just means that they do not consider the books necessary and if you have questions as to their reasons then go ask THEM. It is as simple as that. It doesn’t mean anything if SOME denominations do not have them in their Bibles. Anything all, you are making a point of something that is unimportant to the real issues that you are dealing with.

    • Enoch is another 'holy' writer who was excluded by the people that decided what books would make up the Bible. His writings are a tough read, but worth the time. The Torah excludes the New Testament entirely.

      If I may opine, do your own study, make your own decisions. Follow your heart, which will lead you, by guidance of your study, to the faith you desire, if in fact that is what you wish. Many choose to avoid all this complication. Atheists and agnostic aren't condemned by the Christian, Jew or Hindu, etc... Rather by their lack of faith.

      All the religions that are faith based lead each follower to a life without hate and envy, tolerance toward your fellow man and peaceful existence on the Earth.

      The only one that in the modern era even remotely suggests violence to achieve a total submission to it is islam. The final goal in the koran is the world caliphate. Coexistence with islam is dependent on jizya and the will of one of the moon worshipers not deciding to cut your head off.

      The mussies will kill each other until only one is left alive to be certain he is worthy. The koran is quite a read. Yes, I have read it and the surah and the hadith. When you get to the point where mohamed is saying never mind what he said before, this changes now to this opposite meaning, you may get the feeling that he had too many funny mushrooms before dictating - he could not write - the hallucinations to his scribe.

      • "When you get to the point where mohamed is saying never mind what he said before, this changes now to this opposite meaning, you may get the feeling that he had too many funny mushrooms before dictating – he could not write – the hallucinations to his scribe."
        I have heard about this before. Do you remember where exactly in the Koran does it say this?

        KimmyQueen: You seriously have enlightened me a lot and you are true to the heart. This may be kinda off topic but this verse popped up in my head after reading all your posts:

        "For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away."
        Matthew 25:29

        God bless!

    • BeBot,
      "One aspect that bothers me about Christianity..." It seems to be more than one aspect... "...and the [M]uslim faith is that it states that if you do not accept [J]esus [C]hrist or Allah respectively then you will face eternal damnation." And why is that an aspect that bothers you? How is this issue a problem for you? I do not believe in Allah and Allah and Jesus are not similar in any way shape or form. I am not going to be defending Islam so you can take your gripes with Islam with a Muslim. Perhaps you may want to go to Iran or go to an Imam and talk to them about the aspects of Islam that bother you... I am sure you will have a great time... Tell me how that went.

      Now let's just talk about Jesus Christ. He is awesome and I actually could talk about Him every day (and I do) all day. Again why is that an aspect that bothers you? If you are certain in your faith (or lack thereof) that He (Christ) does not exist, what anyone says or what is written in a book shouldn't faze you nor bother you a bit.

      What Allah or Buddha or whomever (who is not Christ) says or doesn’t say or what is written in the books about them, doesn’t bother me nor faze me one bit. I’m good. The ONLY thing that TRULY bothers me about ANY religion is when their texts, their prophets, their leaders, and their believers promote and engage in violence. Or they get into a campaign to minimize my rights. It bothers me when their believers (in majority) do NOTHING to stop the violence being promoted by their texts and their leaders and so on, not even to speak against it. It bothers me when those who do not belong to their religion are treated as mud or worst. When the non-believers are arrested, tortured, murdered/martyred, raped, enslaved, abused, stoned, lynched, burnt, maimed. It bothers me when they use their texts and their beliefs to minimize or take away the rights of those who do not believe.

      Very few religions actually function that way in the world as we know it. I think we know that the most of these societies as I described above are controlled by a Fundamental form of Islam. Some parts of India (Hindi being a main religion) have serious problems with persecution of non-believers (Orissa, India: http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=13079 http://www.gfa.org/persecution/orissa/ ). Some Buddhists countries like the Kingdom of Bhutan also are persecuting non-believers: http://www.persecution.org/2010/12/01/ongoing-human-rights-violations-in-bhutan-the-sham-happy-kingdom/. However the main persecutors of those who do not believe in their religion is (Fundamental) Islam.

      Going back to your point: I have no problem with non-Christian people’s personal beliefs stating that I will be damned in a next life scenario. That is acceptable as my own religion, states that those that do not believe in Christ will not be saved. I accept the fact that I could be wrong and I willing to pay the price, the thing with me is that, I know I am not wrong. I am sure that I am not, so I am not worried. Atheists and whoever else should not be concerned then, because if you are right whatever any religion states will not affect you. Why does it REALLY bother you?

      • “Does that seem fair to you?” Yes. Yes it does. I have been a horrible person, even if I haven’t broken most of the commandments. I believe in justice. A pedophile should go to Hell don’t you think? Or should a pedophile go to Heaven and live alongside the child he or she molested, raped and (in some cases) murdered? Would you find that just and fair?

        Listen, I personally do not want to go to Hell and I am sorry and disgusted for all sin in my life and I want nothing to do with evil. I want to find methods of salvation for me to deal with the sin, for me to find ways to forgive myself, to forgive others for the evil they have done unto me so I can heal and move on. I want to be a better person and if there is an afterlife I don’t want to have to pay for the things that I have done. I just don’t. So what to do? I study and I research and I talk to people. The only philosophy, way to live, way of life, religion… whatever that has and is working for me is Christianity. I don’t seek to hurt others that do not believe in what I believe in, but work to protect my freedoms from those that seek to hurt me.

        The fact that Jesus promises that I don’t have to pay for all the things that I have done, because He died in order to absorb my sins, is awesome! That is a great promise and so far, He is the only one that has proven Himself capable to fulfill it (He is the only one that has said He could). What He asks is not even that intense. He loves me so He wants me to love Him back. What’s the problem? He is awesome. I want to follow Him and I want to be where He lives. But hey if you don’t want to love Him, then that is your decision! Why are you mad that He is given you your entire life to make a choice and then when your life is done, He will not allow you to go to His home and since you did not ask Him to absorb your sins, you have to pay for them? I mean I think that is fair. If you hated Him while you lived, do you really think there will be a difference in how you feel about Him after you die? Why would He allow someone that hates Him into His home? Would you ask someone that you know hates you to come and live with you in your home?

        • “If someone was born in India they will most likely be a (Hindu) and if someone was born in (Iraq) they would be [M]uslim.” O-K… *shrugs* “Where you come from and who raises you affects what religion you believe in substantially.” O-K…. *shrugs* so… What is your point? People cannot change their religions regardless of their background? :-/ There are people born in Israel and the other parts of the Middle East that become Christians… there are people born in the US or Latin America that become Muslims… so… yeah?

          “Also the Bible is not written in every single language as well so how can someone be responsible for understanding what the scripture says?” Well for one, there are many projects (the most famous one: http://www.wycliffe.org/) whose entire mission is to translate the Bible to as many known/discovered languages as possible, as quickly as possible it takes some time, however, it is getting done. Hopefully, one day soon, this won’t longer be an excuse for people; when they want to talk about how it is not fair that they have to pay for their sins because OTHERS can’t read the Bible yet. :-/

          I am into apologetics, so I can write extensively about this issue, but I think that this is something that I can point to fundamental sources and that YOU should take the time to read and research on your own in more full measure. Just want to say one thing, even though OTHERS may not be able to access the Bible, it doesn’t mean that YOU are not able to. The most important thing here is that YOU take responsibility for what YOU know and by what YOU have ACCESS to. The point is that YOU can read and access a Bible and therefore you are still responsible for what you know and by what you do with what you know. So these are sources that I advise you take a look at and they have further resources that you can hunt down and look at on your own:

          - G-d Revelation before the Bible (and for those that do not have a Bible yet): http://www.gotquestions.org/know-God-before-Bible.html
          - http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html
          - Jesus only way to Heaven? http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-only-way.html

          • “… It is completely unfair to say that Jesus Christ is the one true way and if you are not able to accept that or have a hard time believing in a religion then sucks for you. To me being forced to accept the [L]ord seems rather harsh at times since there is so much uncertainty in this world.”

            That made no sense. Unfair? To you? Are you an atheist? If you are an atheist Jesus being the only way to Heaven shouldn’t be a problem, because you shouldn’t believe it. I don’t get it. Also NO ONE is forcing you to accept Jesus Christ. Forcing you to accept Jesus Christ will mean that someone is putting a gun to your head or a knife to your throat. Has someone put a gun to your head or a knife to your throat? No one should be doing that to you, so you really shouldn’t be worried. Unless of course you take that trip to Iran… If you do, then YOU SHOULD REALLY BE CONCERNED about being forced to accept Allah.

            Why are you so afraid? If you don’t believe in Christ you shouldn’t be afraid. If you believe there is no afterlife, the “uncertaint[ies] in this world” should not be an issue for you. We are not going to live forever we will all die. So why are you so afraid? Where is your fear coming from and why are you upset about something that you shouldn’t?

          • “We never asked to be born and now we must live a life to die.” Uhm… so… you are afraid of dying? And… you are angry at G-d or something? You are wondering why you were born and what is your purpose? http://www.gotquestions.org/why-did-God-create-us.html You have worth. There is a reason you exist. It is YOUR responsibility to find out instead of being a victim of circumstances.

            Should this be the place for you to be? Shouldn’t you talk to a psychologist or a pastor or priest or rabbi or someone (your family…)? I think that you have deep issues here and pretty much posting this to me is not the way to go. You should speak to someone that can help you with your anxiety. Live your life the way you want to live it, just don’t hurt others NOR yourself in the process. You won’t find what you are looking for this way. If you do your due diligence and study Jesus Christ and you realize that He fulfills your needs then great, but if you don’t believe that He does then it is what it is.

          • Actually some believers and non believers both believe that indeed you DID ask to be born. And into whatever circumstance you find yourself, as a means of spiritual growth and development. And all you have to do to verify Jesus existence is to read the Roman historians of the day. They refer to him as a "magician" due to the miracles he performed. You may not believe in his divinity, but there is no doubting hs actual existence.

          • Right. No historian worth his or her salt regardless of their belief system denies the actual existence of Jesus in the world at that time.

            We could have asked to be born or not, the point being that we are here and that we do have purposes in being here indeed.

          • “An extraordinary claim such as Jesus [C]hrist being real requires extraordinary amount of evidence. “ Then go find it. Why should others do the work that you should be doing yourself? Even if you go finding evidence that He doesn’t exist, don’t rely on others, go and do your own research from DIFFERENT AND VARIED sources. However, I don’t really think that is a problem. The issue here is that you are probably wondering what your purpose in life is. You want to do things that your mind and your conscience perhaps are asking you not to do and you want to blame someone for that, because you want to do what you want to do. I am just theorizing. So I think the best thing to do is for you to research and speak to people that can guide you and sort it out.

  • Oh wow what a plethora of information! . Thank you very much KimmyQueen . I will check out those links and take your advice to heart.

    • You are welcome. A lot of people would like to believe that I am stupid and that believers (in any religion) are stupid because they believe in an "invisible" Deity. I have been studying religions of the world since the age of 12. I have been reading and studying the Bible pretty much since that time as well. I didn't just one day wake up and decided to be a Christian because it was easier for me and it allows me to be lazy and not think about anything and just to believe what is easier to believe. Being a Christian is hard work. It is not easy. It takes a lot of study, a lot of time, dedication and Faith. It comes with a lot of hardships and problems (I am not going to sugarcoat it and neither did Jesus Christ recommend reading Luke 14 (25-34)), but the point is that I am not alone in the process and in the end I get what I need which is better than what I want.

      Good Luck to you!

  • Personally I do believe in a higher power but at times I am confused at which "way" is correct. I myself read the Bible often and grew up going to non-denominational churches but yet I have friends of the Muslim faith and some who follow Hinduism and Buddhism. Which way is the correct way? Is it fair to say if one does not follow the correct path than he or she may go to hell? I mean how are we suppose to determine which way is the correct way if there are many religions in the world? After all I feel like where you are born in the world influences what religion you believe in the future (of course there are exceptions). Sorry if this is off topic. I'm kinda new to this website.

    • Please take the time to read these:

      - http://www.gotquestions.org/how-to-get-to-heaven.html
      - http://www.gotquestions.org/correct-religion.html
      Please look around the website. They have great resources apart from the questions they provide. Books and commentaries and so on that you can get online or through libraries.

      Read works by Lee Strobel and Dr. James Kennedy. I would suggest reading The Gospels especially the Gospel of John. I also suggest Romans (The Epistle. Romans 8 is a good chapter.) and read AND study the book of Isaiah. If you get a good commentary, study guide, or go to a good class (college/church, ask a pastor or rabbi) it may prove beneficial to you. I am talking about Isaiah primarily (it is a rather complex book... but it is historical, eschatological and prophetical), but for the entire Bible or for select Bible books would be great to get study guides and commentaries. You can find good free ones online.

      Read the book of Proverbs (1:22-33 speaks to how G-d views those that do not seek out after Wisdom. You are seeking after wisdom so you are already on the right path.). I would suggest in addition to reading, to actually listen to the Bible it makes for a great change of perspective. There are great oral Bibles out there. Just give it time 6 months to start to 4 years to really get in there. It is high school time, college time and it is worth it. It takes 4-5 years to truly read and study the entire Bible. I hope this helps to get you started: http://www.thruthebible.org/site/c.irLMKXPGLsF/b.4104137/k.630B/Daily_5Year_Bible_Study.htm

      Ask for believers that you know and trust to pray for you and ask them to ask you how you are doing and do not be upset when they do. For the first few months even six months just keep the circle small and ask for their discretion, then widening the community after a while. Even try different churches even denominational, read about the different denominations. All in all though I would strongly suggest remaining CHRIST centric when you are visiting the churches and try to judge them by how well they stay Christ centered. What are they doing for the community? What are they doign with the offerings they pick up? What is the most central sermons and agendas they have?

      While you are doing all that, take the time to truly study other religions, take religion classes at college, do your own reading and research, speak to different religious leaders. Study and compare the history of the religions. See how the religions are being conducted today. Who benefits? Who suffers?

      Do not lose heart when you encounter hypocrites (in any religion). You WILL encounter them. They are not important to you nor your quest. A lot of people tell me the crap of how people in the far past or even in the present were doing evil things in the name of religion or were hypocrites so they won't believe... Weak.

      My last suggestion and it is the most important: PRAY. Pray respectfully pray constantly even when you are driving or washing dishes. Pray for protection over yourself and your family and your friends during this time of study, prayer and search of wisdom and what G-d has to offer you. I say that because there will be people and unseen forces that will try to derail your search. If you don't know how to call Him, just pray to the All Knowing, All Powerful G-d of the Universe who is Benign and TRULY cares for you and the people that you love.... or the G-d that loves you... or the G-d that is called Love/Wisdom/Justice.

      Whatever you decide just make sure to be sure and certain, and to accept any and all consequences of your choices.

  • "Besides it is not founded on logic" Which one? Your logic that you created all by yourself for your yourself?

    "...reason or empirical data but rather on a mysterious book a thousand years old."
    Whatever... it is only mysterious because you want it to be. It isn't mysterious to over 4 billion people on earth perhaps even more. You are overthinking it and I have explain why already.

    "By the way religion is ALL theory since there are like 5000 of them with no sheer amount of evidence. You are clearly delusional. How brilliant!!" I am delusional because I believe in something that doesn't fully satisfy your belief
    system... UHM... I guess you and I are both delusional then... right? You are coming at me, I am coming at you right back trust bobo you are no better than me honey.

    "You are right. Those that fought for civil rights for the blacks came from the
    churches. Such kind and loving people. Christians are also the ones who own and beat slaves while using GOD’S laws to justify their actions (read Exodus if this shocks you)." NO it doesn't shock me because people can claim to be Christians and do bad thingsbut that is because they are evil, not because they are truly Christians. AS for Exodus. Please place a scriptural text, because you are taking it out of context notsurprising since you are delusional.

    I hope you read everything but I amnot going to do this again UNLESS you answered my number one question.

    • I am FASCINATED by the posts that are covered. That says a lot to me about the state of mind of those that voted down.

      • Kimmy, I save my ups for these times when good posts by people that are here for the civil discourse this forum provides, are endangered. We've got a small group of trolls (or one of industrious ilk, willing to maintain multiple persona) that follow you around and seem to hit down when nobody is looking. None of your posts, even the occasional, but called for, hot tempered ones deserves to be hidden for the content. I sweep my target areas with an erratic frequency and now is one of those times.

        God bless us all, and especially those fighting the good fight.

        Translation - only a troll needs this translated, so keep it to yourself, OBlivkenobee.

        • Thanks Dean. It is not easy but I never shrink from doing or say what I believe to be righteous.

          • I'll always be in your corner and know you'll be in mine because neither of us wouldn't back up the other. It is that simple. It is the good fight and we know it. Simple semantic variation won't stub that sort of thing. Messianic, Judeo, Trinitarian or any other variant of the Christian foundation causes no rift. A disagreement remains peaceful, certainly non-violent, by nature of the foundation provided. The other religions all respect the others to have their own beliefs except for islam. Indeed there have been violent confrontations between religions. Indeed the world, for the most part - a qualification I am not pleased to have to say - has enjoyed a great deal of civility and advancement for a good long time. A civilized world affords a vastly superior existence to what islam offers. Oppression sucks, right?

          • Agreed on all points. Let's just wear the thumbs down with a badge of honor. Hopefully what we do can be a seed for those who are open minded. In all reality what I do, I do for those that are open minded, those that are seeking answers like the lady last night. Regardless of hypocrites and some loose ends, Judeo-Christianity has afforded great things to the world. The haters just tell me that Christ was right on all accounts so He is right about the future as well.

          • I've said it before and state with a reasonable certainty that this won't be the last, you rock, Kimmy! Blessings upon you and yours from our God, the One Savior as stated in the Book.

          • Here it is twenty-five minutes later and I've already got two downs, which is cool cuz that means the regulars here have other things to do this Saturday night. I keep to my tight knit group at home these type of nights, unless I have a gig. Trolling isn't just for trolls on Friday and Saturday nights.

    • Dear Lord,

      Please keep me ever mindful of the fact that if I ever misquote or misinterpret the Bible, the ever lovely and gracious KQ will, without a doubt and without hesitation, hand my a$$ back to me.

      Amen

          • DRB,

            Thank you for this link. This man is amazing. He is actually heroic. G-d bless him. I think that this man is to be prayed for because he has a target on his back. He is right, I do believe that muslims are being deceived. I personally believe that the devil did a major bout of identity theft in the creation of Islam. It stole the identity of an angel who actually heralded the birth of Christ for starters, used Abraham and Moses to solidify Islam, and then used Mary (Mother of Christ) and Christ Himself to further make points to its authenticity (which it doesn't have). I do salute those who see the potential for the religion as a benign force and seek to moderate it, but it is going to take a lot of work (and blood sadly) to reform Islam.

            Coptic Christans are among the poorest of the poor in Egypt. Many of them live in garbage areas. Their women and girls are picked up, raped and forced to marry muslim men in greater numbers as time goes by and they continue to loose more of their freedoms and rights. Many are used as slave labor. G. W. Bush tried what he could to speak to the tyrant (Mubarak) about more protection for them, but it was a precarious position, as we came to know, because Egypt was really the only ally Israel had in the area. If he pushed too hard, there was a chance that Egypt will not be an ally agains the terrorists and so on. So the Coptics were in essence, victims of political play.

            http://blog.beliefnet.com/reformedchicksblabbing/2008/02/a-look-at-the-living-condition.html

            Thanks for sharing. I pray for the persecuted everyday.

            Now let's see how many thumbs down we are going to get. Let's see how many heartless freaks are out there trolling the site.

          • So far one heartless troll that has no care for the poor people who suffer every day in Egypt because of their faith. Am I surprised...? no.

          • Wow... it must be sad being a troll without a soul.

            Basically posted the previous comment ten minutes ago and I already got a thumbs down. I am really packing these badges in. It is just too bad that it is demonstrative of hateful trolls that are soulless and weak.

          • I agree with Mr. Youssef. I personally don't understand this ass kissing done to those that wish to kill christians and so on. It is crazy. I havent read the book, I may have to add it to my Amazon list too :-) Thanks for sharing.

          • "...theory that liberal fascism is in and of itself a religion with the state being its god."
            Yep. I think if anything it is not a theory. It is very clear that it is the truth. I think I have said here somewhere that it is necessary for government to recognize that there is a power that is higher. Once the government does not recognize a higher power it will create a vaccuum that govt officials will be more than happy to fill up. That is EXACTLY what Hitler did. One of the FIRST things that he did after becoming chancellor was to go after control of the churches and church leaders and even making sure that his face was in place of crosses and so on. It is all of course part of an evil plot by evil forces that I am sure you know what Im talking about. The amazing thing is that we are getting hit from all sides. It is an orchestrated effort to bring everything that is good down to make space for a centralized government. People don't want to know what is going on but people better wake up. This is not a joke. We have been warned thousands of years ago, we just have to be ready.

          • I enjoyed the book. Particularly the first third of it where it demonstrates the many quotation from the Bible that the progressives have taken out of context, and the many passages that are clearly counter to their assertions, yet they simple choose to ignore.

            The other book I mentioned to you, "Liberal Fascism" ,
            shows how fascism has alway been part of the left even though many claim it is a phenomenon of the right, and further expresses a theory that liberal fascism is in and of itself a religion with the state being its god.

          • Egads! How petty can the troll get!

            The Coptic Church is nearly wiped off the Earth for daring to not succumb to islam, a huge cult of murderous, misogynous, pedophile rapists, that over ran the country of Egypt, just as is taking place in Pakistan, Bangladesh and numerous other places. The crusades, brutal, bloody as they were, were driven to suppress the same problem, whole city-states and countries historically renowned for the advances in culture they had developed, driven to stone age lives by islam, because in the teachings of that koranic fantasy in which NOBODY is allowed to advance or learn without permission of the imam. Hundreds of years apart and horrific, they failed in each to rid the planet of this mental disorder, leaving the seeds of socialism and communism in the gene pool, which is what we face from within and out. Mohamed hallucinated and we're still arguing over what he saw, but they're still killing millions. How pathetic. The next crusade will be much, much more awful for many more people.

            Did you know that innocence can only exist in muslims, and only those muslims that are not apostate?

          • Unfortunately you garned some hate there too. It is indeed pathetic. It is sad that someone can be so hateful.

            Yes only (Fundamental/Sharia abiding) Muslims are real people, everyone else are animals. That is why it is okay for Coptic Christians to live in garbage areas, and it is okay for the girls and women to be picked up/kidnapped, raped, tortured, and forcibly married and forcibly made to be muslims. That is why it is okay that their families never hear from them again and the law does nothing to help them.

  • why can't I post here anymore? it seems to be an issue...

    I am starting to loose patience with this site, for some reason it is not allowing me to post.

    "Yet there is as many unanswered questions in the Bible as there is in science so your religion definitely does not explain more at all." Science hasn't yet answers all the questions of the cosmos either, but you don't see me bitching about how Science should not be believed in or studied or whatever... The universe is complex, it is every changing, and huge. Studies of the universe has to go with the time. Talking neutrinos or wormholes to ancient civilizations would have completely been out of place. However we continue to live our lives and grow in knowledge and G-d is okay with us knowing more and more as time goes on. Why can't science just be a tool to know about the universe that surround us, why must science be a tool to try to demolish people's personal beliefs? Also you seem to assume that all scientists and science people do not believe in G-d when many foundational scientists were Christians and there are very many Christian scientists in all fields.

    HOWEVER WITH THAT SAID... the Bible goes into how the world is oval or round in shape... eons before Galileo. The Bible speaks about how the world is suspended in space as well. The book of Job speaks of ice and snow constantly something not part of the books before it and many scientists (who happen to be Christians) believe the timeline of Job could have been some time after or even perhaps during the latter parts of the Ice Age. There are tons of powerful and useful "scientific" aspects in the Bible. There G-d actually names stars, whose names we continue to use.

    Job 26:7 -
    "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." (NIV)
    "God stretches the northern sky over empty space and hangs the earth on nothing." (NLT)
    "He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth on nothing."
    (ESV)

    Job 26:10 (spherical Planet, same observation that Columbus did) [url]http://bible.cc/job/26-10.htm[/url]
    Isaiah 40:21-22: [url]http://bible.cc/isaiah/40-21.htm[/url] and [url]http://bible.cc/isaiah/40-22.htm[/url]
    Proverbs 8:27 (look it up)

    Jesus speaks to His return and how when He returns in that day and in that night it speaks to the fact that half of the world will be in darkness and the other half will be in daytime: Luke 17:31-34 (look it up).

    There are many scripture verses in the Bible that speak to the work of G-d as expanding the heavens or stretching the heavens. Science has demonstrated that indeed the "heavens" are in continuous state of expansion, which means that G-d is continually creating more galaxies and worlds and stars. I personally find that very exciting to tell you the truth!

    I could be here all day on this so I want tomove on to the last parts of your thesis.

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